How Great Detective Work Results in Copy Worth Millions of Revenue

Posted on April 28, 2020

In this episode, we talk about all things positioning, copywriting, and conversion rate optimization with expert Joel Klettke.

We talk to Joel about the most common mistakes when creating website copy that is costing them millions of dollars in lost revenue. We get into the differences between positioning, copywriting, and CRO, before getting in a real example where Joel walks us through his process.


Time Stamped Notes 

[2:50] – The number one error Joel sees B2B marketing companies make is they don’t have a narrative/story for their brand; they position themselves as a list of features. Another standard error is brands treat copy as an afterthought. They’ll work hard to redesign and redevelop a website and then try to fit the copy to that design.

[6:00] – A lot of brands leap to solving a problem without understanding who they’re solving the problem for, so they have zero identity. Joel recommends the book ‘Stop listening to the customer‘. 

[7:00] – Joel takes us through how you build a narrative to your brand; he recommends first looking internally and then looking externally. You need to know who you’re building a product for, and why would anyone care about that product. The answer shouldn’t be a feature. 

[11:00] – We get into the differences between positioning, copywriting, and conversion optimization. Positioning is the brand’s identity, it’s the big idea, the copy is the way it’s communicated, and conversion optimization is the optimization of that copy. It’s impossible to write fantastic copy if a brand doesn’t have a clear identity. 

[13:30] – Look at your happiest customers and find out why they’re so happy. A lot of brands start with what’s broken. You also shouldn’t let the market dictate what your positioning is, or you’ll end up sounding like 99% of the companies who offer similar features.

[17:20] – The sweet spot for a companies brand is finding something unique to build a narrative around but still anchor that story to the problems the company solves, so people know they sell software.

[18:50] – One of the reasons companies websites end up looking and sounding very similar is they use others for inspiration, assuming those companies know what works. You shouldn’t be afraid to do something different from what everyone else is doing.

[21:45] – We walk through a recent example of how Joel optimized a client’s copy that resulted in $165k in additional revenue. The client was a website for online divorce. When Joel dug into the analytics, he realized conversions heavily skewed towards men. Joel goes through the analysis he did to discover why that was happening, and the copy changes he recommended.

[26:50] – Joel talks through the exact sources he used to get the data needed to make the above recommendations.

[29:45] – To create a personal brand, you need to be explicit about what you want to be known for and obsessed over solving that problem. Joel markets around the problem he solves, not actions. He helps companies to improve their conversion rate to get more revenue. To grow his brand, he’ll continually create content around these problems and give it away for free.

[34:30] – However people describe you when they’re recommending you to others, that’s what your brand is. That’s the real estate you own in someone’s head. 


– Joel on Twitter / LinkedIn
– Kieran on Twitter / LinkedIn / Medium
– Scott on Twitter / Linked / Medium